Wednesday, July 24, 2013

The State of the Economy and ObamaCare...

by: Les Carpenter
Rational Nation USA
Liberty -vs- Tyranny

Yes indeed. Just as some on the left are sounding the clarion call that ObamaCare is working in those states that have embraced it, such as New York and California to name two, polls are indicating that the overall national perception of ObamaCare is a net negative and even shows that some believe it should be repealed.

My own view is that those favoring drastic overhaul or repeal have it about right. In the rush "to do something" We the People ended up with a flawed law being shoved down our throats. This is not a partisan statement as I'm willing to bet (based on the number of democrats that are now balking) that many liberals are questioning the wisdom of passing the legislation they knew little about and whose leader, Rep, Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) said 'we have to pass the law to know what's in it'. ????? is all I can say about that gem of blind partisan faith and lack of reason.

As President Obama, and our First Lady embark on yet another campaign to sell the ACA (ObamaCare) I say why not let the damn thing meander its way into full implementation and after five or so years analyzing it's impact decide what we should have done. Of course that is assuming ObamaCare ruins the American healthcare system as many (myself included) think it will. But we could be very wrong. Soooooooooo, since we don't know (for sure), why not give the duly elected President of this Great Republic the unfettered opportunity to prove his signature legislation is right for America? Or, let it through the working process show itself to be the failure the republicans, libertarians, and some democrats fear it will be? Don't we owe the PresidentWE elected that opportunity?

ObamaCare at the two minute mark.

CBS News - A new CBS News poll finds more Americans than ever want the Affordable Care Act repealed.

According to the poll, 36 percent of Americans want Congress to expand or keep the health care law while 39 percent want Congress to repeal it - the highest percentage seen in CBS News polls. The poll also found a majority of Americans - 54 percent - disapprove of the health care law, 36 percent of Americans approve of it and 10 percent said they don't know about it.

The health care law is a chronic issue for the White House, CBS News political director John Dickerson said on "CBS This Morning." "There's an operational part to this, which is that the White House has got to get people to sign up for these health exchanges, particularly younger, healthier Americans, and so they are tactically running a campaign much like the presidential campaign, reaching out, using the techniques of that campaign to get younger people to sign up for these health exchanges."

Special Section: Health Care in America

The poll also found just 13 percent of Americans say the health care law will personally "help me" while 38 percent said they believe the law will personally "hurt me."

Dickerson said, "The feeling, basically, is, again, speeches are not going to change public opinion; this has got to start taking hold. People will start signing up and, the White House hopes, good things will start to happen once it kicks in, and that might turn around public opinion, but that's a ways away."

Open enrollment in the Health Insurance Marketplace begins Oct. 1.

Obama hits the road to lay out his economic vision

Via: Memeorandum


  1. Oh relax, Les. He's planning to nominate Larry Summers as Fed chairman. You think the bottom to top wealth transfer has been outrageous?
    You ain't seen nothing till you catch Larry's act.

    His speech was mostly a rehash of stuff he has no plans to enact. Strictly kabuki for Rollo.

  2. What bottom to top wealth transfer?

  3. Oh, lets see...

    "Obamacare is working in the states that have embraced it...." so if Obamacare fails in your state does that mean that we blame Obamacare or do we blame your state? If Obamacare does work in states that embrace it and does not work in states that do not embrace then can we claim that the states that do not embrace it are failures?

    How exactly do we determine whether Obamacare is successful or not? What are the goals of Obamacare?

    Here is a very good article on the fact that lots of Americans have already benefited from Obamacare and may not even know it:

    Personally, I think the idea of health insurance exchanges is brilliant as it creates markets that will spur competition and innovation. To have competition in a market you need demand and we need to find a way to create a demand among consumers so to do so, we have to find a way to break our old system of health insurance being supplied by employers.

    So, Les, do you and your libertarian and conservative buddies have problems with health insurance exchanges? Do you have problems with a consumer driven health insurance program vs. an employer driven health insurance market?

    Maybe Obamacare will give you what you claim you believe in but you are too partisan to see it?

    Did it ever dawn on you and your buddies that maybe one of the unstated Obamacare objectives is to drive our health insurance market to a consumer driven model? Employers and health insurers both benefited dramatically from our current system...

    1. Fine points, argued well by you.

      Buddies? Partisan? Libertarian? Conservative?... Perhaps it is time to now "flip the coin.". Get the drift?

      ObamaCare is still in it's early stages. Even with the delays, and continued resistance, it will ultimately breath enough air to come to full implementation. Once this occurs, and there has been sufficient time, say five years or a decade, only then will we know if it is the panacea some believe it will be.

      Much at this point is yet theoretical and based on assumptions that can only be substantiated after time has passed. We'll get the opportunity, those young enough to live long enough, to know the final outcome.

      There are indicators of success and failure by anaylyzing other government run healthcare programs in other countries. Applying the America is Exceptional meme perhaps we'll figure out how to make it work exceptionally well and for the long haul.

      By the way, what's up with England's teetering healthcare system?

      So, I admit to being quite skeptical, as I am, always have been, and will always remain when it comes to government programs and increased control over the lives of individuals. On that I shall not change. But there is no use beating a dead horse now is there tao?

      Cheerio old chap...

    2. First off, England is a single payer system where the providers are actually employed by the government. There is no similarity between healthcare in England and Obamacare, not one single comparsion.

      In fact, it is the exact opposite of Obamacare.

  4. There is nothing fine about tao's argument. Obamacare is consumer driven?

    He obviously doesn't know what that word means, or he is ignorant of Obamacare.

  5. This also betrays tao's woeful ignorance...

    ... it creates markets that will spur competition and innovation. To have competition in a market you need demand and we need to find a way to create a demand...

    A government-created marker is a monster. Free markets occur spontaneously where needed. That has how it has happened all throughout history, from the Silk Road, to modern-day towns and villages all over the world.

    We need to "find a way to create demand?"

    That is an ignorant statement. There is demand right now for health care. You don't need to create it. It's there!

    What we need is a free market where millions of pages of government regulation doesn't snuff the market signals like supply, demand, and price.

    As it stands, price has nothing to do with cost, the consumer never knows the true cost of what she consumes, so the price signals are snuffed, totally distorting the market.

    If we did car insurance the way we do health insurance, we would never change our own oil, and an oil change would cost over $200 dollars.

    It is economically-absurd pronouncements like tao's that are responsible for the hopelessly tangled mess that is any market the government tries to control. Think Healthcare and education.

    -- Silverfiddle

    1. Yeah, I thought the idea of creating demand that already exists was quite odd. More like government tweaking on my mind.

    2. Les said:

      "Yeah, I thought the idea of creating demand that already exists was quite odd. More like government tweaking on my mind."

      It's like Stalin's five-year plans. And we know how well that worked...

    3. Lets, see how does one deal with the smart ass of silverfiddle and the stupidity of dmarks all at once...

      First off, right now only 11% of Americans buy their own health insurance. 44% get their health insurance from their employers and 25% get theirs from the government. Thus the "demand" is employers and government....not consumers/individuals.

      Got it fellas?

      Oh, and as far as free markets insurance companies are dictated to by state government not the federal government. That's why state governments have insurance commissioners. Insurance companies work real close with the various state insurance commissioners to ensure that the markets have barriers to entry...its great for their business and that's why most big employers go self funding on their healthcare and workers comp insurance so that they can be governed by Federal regulations rather than state regulations....

  6. I don't like it butThu Jul 25, 11:19:00 AM EDT

    Perception is not reality.
    45% of Americans believe Obama is not American born. 38% believe he is Muslim. It's easy to get Americans to believe lies.
    The demand for health care is there, where is the alternative plan from Republicans? Where was that plan when the vote on the ACA was taking place, or before?
    The private sector was not correcting that problem and made no effort to do so. Proof is in the fact that the number of uninsured has been climbing for decades, there was plenty of time for the private sector to come up with solutions.
    Supply and demand no longer works. 50 million without healthcare and the private corporations did nothing to offer those 50 million health insurance. ACA give those companies 30 million new customers, but those are forced customers and companies will not lower premium costs, but take the extra profit. They are not fighting for those customers, those customer are forced to buy.
    If preliminary reports are that States are saving money, individuals have cut their premium costs in half, then it is working.
    "Shoved down our throats" It was passed by majority like any other law. You can not like the ACA law, as I do, but don't infer it was against our will. Your perception that ACA is bad law, is premature and not backed by facts.
    I wonder how many Republicans were balking at voting to give Bush the right to invade Iraq, two years later? That was a majority bipartisan vote also. As I suspected, now that American troops are gone Iraq is turning back to violence. We could have saved 100's of millions of dollars and thousands of American lives, if we had not invaded as I wished. But I have to live by the will of the majority.
    So yes, allow ACA to be fully implemented like the vote to invade Iraq and see what happens. In the mean time millions without insurance will get insured. Insurance companies are still running the game. The government is not in charge of someones healthcare.
    If you prefer private companies to solve this problem, fine, but, they had decades of opportunity to do so, but did not. I prefer the private sector solve our economic problems, but they are not, so it's not unexpected, or unreasonable for Americans to demand their government should.
    Seems the Republicans like the status quo, do nothing, there is no problem. I find that unacceptable. Republicans want to shut down SS, Medicare, etc. without any realistic replacements for those programs. Global competition is driving wages down in America, so our only choice is to become a third world country?

    1. I don Ampersand said: " If you prefer private companies to solve this problem, fine, but, they had decades of opportunity to do so, but did not"

      The state did not let them.

    2. BS. They never tried, or even asked the States.

  7. Even the unions are bailing on Obamacare. Jimmy Hoffa Jr. - "I've changed my mind!!"

  8. It is state driven, for sure. When the rulers force people into government markets/exchanges cough collectives, that diminishes accountability and patient/customer control.

    Tao seems to be asleep when he dashes these comments out. The recent one where he said Jersey = Les/RN takes the cake. And this one where he claims that a "reform" which diminishes consumer choice actually increases it is a runner up.

  9. One of the main purposes of the ACA is to reduce the costs of healthcare. Already, the unsustainable inflation in that sector has been reduced, and projections show further deceleration of costs even as the effects of the Great Recession dissipate. That's good news for everyone, but in particular it's good news for Medicare and the seniors and taxpayers affected.

    Another purpose of the ACA was to make people realize their demand for health care services. One of the main opposition forces against the ACA is created by the fact that at any given moment most people are healthy. Human nature, being what it is, therefore creates a barrier to doing anything about a problem that one day we will all have but at any given moment don't have. Fortunately, the ACA's impetus to reduce costs is a two edged sword. Service providers have impetus to resolve health problems, rather than letting them rise to a boil later. And people have a greater impetus to keep up with their health care as they more understand the costs.

    The ACA is by no means a perfect bill, and hopefully, in the future, there will be changes. But it's a lot better than doing nothing, the conservative answer to everything that doesn't involve the police or military states.


    1. Jersey said: "Another purpose of the ACA was to make people realize their demand for health care services"

      That's kind of creepy. Or, to use your catch-all word of derision, "sleazy". The purpose of a policy is to sell/pursaude?

  10. And by the way, Tao? If you want to move toward "consumer choice", eliminate the individual mandate. Not only is it one of the largest tax hikes on the middle class in history, it completely obliterates any idea of consumer choice.

    Les: I applaud those in government who have the public interest in mind and work to diminish, defang, delay, and defund Obamacare. Especially those state governors.

  11. "Legislation to repeal healthcare reform continues to go nowhere, so the Republican Party is now trying to defeat Obamacare by convincing the uninsured not to buy health insurance.

    Reuters reported that, “With the Obama administration poised for a huge public education campaign on healthcare reform, Republicans and their allies are mobilizing a counter-offensive including town hall meetings, protests and media promotions to dissuade uninsured Americans from obtaining health coverage…President Barack Obama’s signature domestic policy is the first major social program to face a highly organized and well-financed opposition years after enactment. The forces arrayed against it could undermine the aim of extending health coverage to millions of uninsured people at affordable rates, if not enough younger adults sign up to make it economically viable.”

    If the GOP had worked with President Obama to get to a plan that more could agree on, perhaps we wouldn't be going through this. But their only solution to America's health care crisis was to make Mr. Obama a one-term president, which, of course, was a complete failure, just like their plans to destroy the ACA will be.

  12. Obamacare is so great, President Obama is delaying implementation of certain unsavory aspects. Constitutional issues aside, that would give a rational-minded cheering squad pause.

  13. They have had a year to make whatever adjustments necessary. States, unions, whoever are just trying to make the ACA fail.

  14. Anon: it is a good start. If we can get him to do the correct thing and delay both mandates indefinitely.....

  15. Whatever. I say let the damn 2,000 plus boat anchor legislation fail or succeed based on it's merits or lack thereof.

    Sometimes ya just gotta move on. Doing nothing is a decision, and most often it is the wrong one.

    But we'll have to wait it out and see...

    As the fiscal ship of delusion continues to flounder the republicans are most interested in, doing nothing, or rolling back time to the 1950's. A sure recipe for success.

    On the other hand the democrats are interested in spending heavily on social issues and turning the US into a full fledged socialist nation as Europe has accomplished. Another sure fire recipe for success.

    It's getting old, damn old. Sadly there appears to be no end in sight in the lifetime of those over 60.

    Oh well, carry on...

  16. "the democrats are interested in spending heavily on social issues and turning the US into a full fledged socialist nation"

    That was a mouthful of BS

    1. In your opinion. Now, if you were actually interested in having a dialogue we could talk about the republicans and how all roads will ultimately end at the same ends.

      But that is just tedious and uninteresting now isn't it?

    2. I doubt it would be a good conversation when you are coming from that position, which is not based in reality.

    3. "the democrats are interested in spending heavily on social issues and turning the US into a full fledged socialist nation"

      Which might be true depending on the extent that Democrats really want "single payer" (complete central government control of all healthcare decisions).

  17. Thank you for confirming my suspicion. You're therefore right, the converaton would likely not be productive due to your being quite removed from reality and your partisan choir membership.

  18. My opinion, your fact??? Funny. What choir am I a member of? We know what choir you are a member of.

    1. Really, giving up your stupidity again.

    2. Not sure about that, RN. I think there's a bottomless well there. He has an endless supply to provide, and won't be giving it all up at all.


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