Sunday, July 21, 2013

Partially Right, Partially Wrong... But Maybe it's a Start

by: Les Carpenter
Rational Nation USA
Liberty -vs- Tyranny

(CNN) - Sen. John McCain, who lost in 2008 to the first African-American elected to the White House, said President Barack Obama's speech about race relations was "very impressive" and agreed that "stand your ground" laws should be re-examined, including those in his own state of Arizona.

"The 'stand your ground' law may be something that may needs to be reviewed by the Florida legislature or any other legislature that has passed such legislation," McCain said on CNN's "State of the Union."

Arizona is one of 30 states that have such laws, which give individuals certain legal rights in cases of self-defense. The law in Florida has come under scrutiny recently during the trial of George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed teenager Trayvon Martin last year during a confrontation.

Asked if he thinks Arizona should review the law, McCain said: "Yes, I do."

"And I'm confident that the members of the Arizona legislature will, because it is very controversial legislation," he told CNN chief political correspondent Candy Crowley.

McCain said he didn't agree with fellow Republican Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, who argued Friday the Obama administration is calling for a review of "stand your ground" laws as a way to further its agenda against Second Amendment rights.

"Isn't it time for America to come together?" McCain asked. "I'd rather have a message of coming together and discussing these issues rather than condemning.

"I respect (Cruz's) view, but I don't frankly see the connection," he added. {Read More}

Senator John McCain is both right and wrong.

In regard the first issue he is right in acknowledging the need to maintain an open and active mind in an honest dialogue over race relations. This implies (and he said as much) the nation as a whole has a ways to go in embracing racial and cultural diversity.

To the degree the President's press conference earlier in the week stated these sentiments he was spot on and can be considered as a Presidential attempt to facilitate such discussion. It was when he made the decision to play the race card (we all know when that was) that e lost the high ground. And, so it was with the Senator when he choose to pander to race rather than stick to the rational facts and give the President a pass in playing the race card.

With respect to the second issue, "Stand Your Ground" legislation, the Senator is 100% correct. These laws MUST be revisited and either scrapped or preferably rewritten with clear and definitive language with respect to when the use of deadly force is considered justified under the law. In addition, comprehensive gun safety and stand your ground training should be mandatory, at the individuals expense, and retraining and certification should be mandatory every two years to retain your license to carry.

Being the realist (and cynic) that I am I have absolutely zero doubt but what NEITHERthe left loonies or the right loonies will find much of the above acceptable. I mean, it is all about ideology, party loyalty, and gunning (pardon the violent expression, it is only rhetorical liberals) to be the winner take all. Even when it makes NO rational sense to do so.

Via: Memeorandum


  1. I agree with you and the Senator on the need to maybe reexamine these "stand your ground" laws. I would just add that stand your ground didn't really have much to do with the Zimmerman case in that Zimmerman was plainly on his back and didn't really have the option to retreat. This was basic self defense, in my opinion.

    1. Perhaps. However, and I've been consistent on this, had Zimmerman listened to the dispatcher, stayed in his car, and drove home there would have been no need for Zimmerman to stand his ground, or lay down and secure his ground.

      The verdict however, based on the charges brought against Zimmerman was the appropriate one. Quite simply the DA brought forth the wrong charges. Therefore justice was not served.

      It became an act of self defense because of Zimmerman's Stupidit . Stupidity in and of itself is no crime. Unfortunaly in this case an unarmed young man paid the ultimate price.

      This case is not about race or profiling, and ample numbers of black leaders have said the same. However, IMNHO stand your ground has the effect of embolding individuals to do things not well advised.

    2. I agree that Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of the vehicle, but I also think that Trayvon should have stayed at (or near) his father's girlfriend's house and not doubled back (to the top of the T) to confront the fellow.

  2. McCain needs to drop the pretense and join his fellow leftist kookoo birds in the Democrat party.

    I want to hear specific criticisms from people wanting to change stand your ground laws. Right now, it's just platitudes and feel-good rhetoric.

    Does a person being beaten have a right to defend herself, or not?

    Guns? What if Zimmerman had grabbed a rock and bashed his skull in? Would that have changed the circumstances?

    I understand you're trying to be Frummishly even-handed here, Les, but this is nothing less than an gun-grabbing agenda in disguise, while the all-powerful progressive state stands impotent against gun-wielding criminals.

    1. I'm not at all sure your Frummishly even handed reference should be taken as a back handed compliment or not.

      If you actually believe that Stand Your Ground laws do not have the effect of embolding some I guess no amount of ideas will convince you clarity is needed.

      Further, if you believe individual should not be required to take firearm safety as well as training in understanding what stand your ground means and how to make responsible decisions (just as law enforcement officers have to) to secure the right to carry then no amount of reaonanle safeguards would be acceptable.

      Reason requires reasonableness. This is not a vigilante nation. At least not yet. For my grandchildrens sake I hope it doesn't become one.

    2. Les,
      It was a backhanded compliment, I plead guilty.

      I'm tired of hearing people saying "Bush did it too," or "Republicans are guilty as well."

      I would say that it goes without saying, but it doesn't. Nanny state liberals sing that tired song all day long.

      And it had become a reflexive phrase, like Muslims saying "Peace be upon him" every time they mention muhammad.

      It's tiring.

      Of course I don't want untrained idiots running around with guns.

      What I want is for those opposed to Stand your Ground laws, or who want them changed, to break it down for us. Right now it's just platitudinous twaddle that makes the speaker feel all warm inside.

      Our right to self-defense stems from our natural right to life, liberty and property.

      I ask you to consider the situation where some dummy starts crap with the wrong person, and then ends up getting his ass beat, and not just fists, but dogpiled by the guys friends, taking a real grave bodily injury beating.

      Must he just take it because he started it?

      Where I don't want to see us end up is in horrible situations such as in England where a homeowner is prosecuted because he shot intruders who were armed only with clubs. If someone is breaking into my house in the dark of night, I don't have the time or the luxury to do a comparison weapons check to be sure there is a proportionality of force.

      I realize the stand your ground opposition it mostly to cases outside the home, so consider this. You are walking with your wife late at night, concealed carry. A creep jumps out and sticks something pointy to your throat. You pull you pistol and shoot him dead.

      The police arrive and determine he only had a screwdriver, and they note you and your wife were not against a wall or trapped in a corner. You were in a wide-open park, for Lilith's sake! You could have retreated, but you didn't. You shot the guy, a poor kid, only 16 years old...

      What say you?

      Perhaps you could analyze a case in which a murderer used Stand Your Ground to get off?

      I say this in all charity and respect, for you are a rational man.

      -- Silverfiddle

    3. "I'm tired of hearing people saying "Bush did it too," or "Republicans are guilty as well."

      I would say that it goes without saying, but it doesn't. Nanny state liberals sing that tired song all day long.

      And it had become a reflexive phrase, like Muslims saying "Peace be upon him" every time they mention muhammad.

      It's tiring."

      I wholehearted agree. 100%.

      Having said this I also find the right guilty of the same thing, and perhaps almost as often.

      Frankly Silver I tire of even bothering at all. The extremes on both sides get the juice. Why you may ask do I say that? Well, it is simply because the POWERS that control us all maintain control of the PEOPLE by keeping then divided and arguing about shit that most 10 year would figure out in a minute.

      Oh, there are those who analyze both sides of the issue, while not sitting in the choir of either the left or the right and determine a position that both the wingnut righties and the looney tune lefties will take issue with and attack them with glee. All the while having NOTHING to offer but more of the same platitudinous bullshit and hyperbole. For sure that indicates the centrist, level headed individuals that see beyond the frozen in time paradigms of both the wingnut righties and the looney tune lefties have it just about right.

      I say, if the show fits. wear it.

      Ever feel like you're on a merry-go-round without a break?

      Have a marvelous Monday. Or is it Magic Monday?...

  3. There's nothing magic about it... ;)

    I agree with your assessment, other than the centrist part. Being centrist or moderate doesn't make one right.

    The arguing is a result of the government infesting every last corner of our lives. Like you, I am sick of it

  4. "I agree with your assessment, other than the centrist part. Being centrist or moderate doesn't make one right."

    Agreed. But it sure as hell helps to see both sides of the argument and then, after discussion and debate, being willing to craft a reasonable compromise that ALL people can live with. Not necessarily agree with, but live with.

    Otherwise the intransigence and bickering continues and not a damn thing at all gets accomplished. AND, we remain a nation divided thus allowing the feral individuals WE have elected to positions of power to control US.

    "The arguing is a result of the government infesting every last corner of our lives. Like you, I am sick of it"

    We are the government. Like it our not we have elected politicians blindly, without even being aware of the issues, and then we wonder (as a people and nation) how things got so screwed up.

    Tiring, indeed tiring... The beat goes on


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