Bush/CIA On The Hot Spot Over Post 911 Interrogation Techniques...
Rational Nation USA
Purveyor of Trith
It's going to get heated over the report on Bush era CIA torture post 911. As the rest of the world undoubtedly verbalize its condemnation.
Skip to about 2:15 video clip embedded above where it gets really interesting. Read the REST OF THE STORY.
Via: Memeorandum
Purveyor of Trith
It's going to get heated over the report on Bush era CIA torture post 911. As the rest of the world undoubtedly verbalize its condemnation.
As people work their way through the passel of documents that is the Senate Intelligence Committee's report on post-9/11, Bush-era CIA torture, Fox News is ready to weigh in: The long-planned doc dump is all political subterfuge. The reactions of some of the hosts of the network's Outnumbered, though, was Fox News at their most stridently jingoistic.
Skip to about 2:15 video clip embedded above where it gets really interesting. Read the REST OF THE STORY.
Via: Memeorandum
I'm with John McCain
ReplyDeleteon this one.
So am I BB Idaho, so am I. That was to be my Thursday post.
ReplyDeleteAnd as Will pointed out elsewhere, Nancy Pelosi knew about it and rubber-stamped it. Which makes it a "hot topic", as she is still in power and GWB is not.
ReplyDeleteBB-Idho, RN USA, count me in with you guys as well.
ReplyDeleteBB, & RN... I have to agree... but we've already seen some on the right ripping the guy alive for treason... amazing treatment all for the sin of agreeing with the Obama Admin.
ReplyDeleteTrue dmarks, but here's the thing, can't undo what was done and he did she did accomplishes little to nothing.
ReplyDeleteThis is an ethical/moral issue and the important thing is to stop it from ever happening in the future.
I have only guarded optimism we will.
The ONE ISSUE that unites liberals, conservatives and libertarians is a shared concern regarding abuses of authority and power. Two revelations of the Senate torture report are the most troublesome: 1 – Rogue operatives exceeded even those practices sanctioned by the Bush/Cheney administration; and 2 – Withholding evidence from an oversight committee whose fiduciary responsibility is to monitor the integrity of governmental operations. Of the two, which is worse: The abuse itself, or the cover-up that renders accountability impossible?
ReplyDeleteYet, with this comment, I offer a contrarian’s view. I am neither comfortable nor optimistic with public disclosures on a subject as sensitive as this. World opinion will NOT remember us for cleaning up our dirty laundry; it will remember us as a country that tortured – making retribution and future practices of torture all the more inevitable.
There is another property of government rarely discussed: Every nation has a PRIMORDIAL MEAN STREAK. No matter how enlightened in principle, every country – especially when facing an existential threat – will violate its own laws and traditions, will violate human rights and fundamental freedoms in order to maintain control over its territory and population. As historical examples, I cite the suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War and the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. After 9/11, i.e. perceiving an existential threat from global terrorism, our country demonstrated its primordial mean streak – for better or for worse.
In my view, the Senate torture report proves nothing and will change nothing. The primordial mean streak will never change until human beings change.
I just completed reading an article in Politico that touchef on some of your points. While reading the article I could not escape thinking how " enhanced interrogation techniques" could be used on the citizens of an ever growing all encompassing government. What a nation does to perceived external enemies so too will it subject perceived internal enemies of the same.
ReplyDeleteI understand you contrarians viewpoint yet given my inherent distrust of government, especially with respect to its authority, I am more comfortable with the exposure. As fot world remembrances all I will say is actions have consequences. It is better to confront the deceit, which is what this report is really about, so there is a chance at least it can be prevented in the future.
The primordial mean streak is part of being the "human animal". The use of reason and a sense of morality that we employ to
combat excesses such as "enhanced interrogation techniques" can only move humans forward in the evolutionary process. Or, perhaps not.
As you point out this is certainly not the first example of the US resorting to extreme measures in the face of a threat real or perceived. Lets not attempt to crucify the Bush Administration, a distinct
possibility I fear. For those who might try it can serve no useful purpose.
“RN: “What a nation does to perceived external enemies so too will it subject perceived internal enemies of the same.”
DeleteNo doubt, we share a common mistrust of government – especially powers that can be invested in and then abused by rogue elements. It’s nature of the beast. Nevertheless, I think we should put these antipathies into perspective.
History has shown that a national trauma can radicalize any population – especially a trauma perceived as unfair and unjust. This was the attitude in post WW1 Germany broken by war, hyperinflation, confiscations and reparations. Against this backdrop, the people of Germany embraced evil to deliver them from evil. This is our experience of the Middle East - centuries of oppression, instability and war that radicalized the population who now embrace evil to deliver them from evil. Similarly, the events of 9/11 - the first attack on native soil in 200 years costing over 3,000 lives - radicalized our nation. It would be unfair and unjust, in my opinion, to engage in mutual finger pointing when thousands of mistakes were made – embracing evil to deliver us from evil – mistake that were bipartisan decisions in both chambers of Congress.
The kinder, gentler thing to do, in my opinion, is NOT to engage in partisan recriminations. These days, there is plenty of read meat to go around, and little profit in feasting upon it.
The report will be significant only if the people responsible for authorizing torture and those people carrying out unauthorized torture are held accountable. Otherwise the report is just an exercise is self-flagellation.
ReplyDeleteThere is legitimate concern about the efficacy of torture among intel professionals: a couple of acquaintances, VN interrogators, are convinced that more accurate intel derived from chatting with
ReplyDeletea prisoner over a cup of coffee; tossing them from helicopters or holding a pistol to their head only
revealed desperate copious misinformation. In the current case, the military was bypassed and even
the CIA outsourced the interrogation process to what appears in hindsight as an
amateur concern; at a taxpayer cost of $81 million. In the interim, some military were charged, but
the professional an amateur spooks were not. We recall the historical results of torture- thousands
of peasants burned as 'confessed' witches in the inquisition, hundreds of Soviet officers 'confessing' in show trials and the pleasantry of Gestapo cellars. IMO, those that consider the US exceptional seem to be the ones arguing the legitimacy of and value of brutal inhuman methods, exemplified by
a recent vice president. We may suppose it hinges on how one defines 'exceptional'.
The thing about Pelosi was only a minor point.
ReplyDeleteExcellent comments, I think Jerry sums it up best, actually.
I'm opposed to water-boarding but for Obama to brag that he's ended it (when he actually didn't - Bush did) while at the same time continuing Bush's rendition program AND sextupling the number of drone attacks (resulting in the deaths of thousands of civilians) is at the very minimum amusing.
ReplyDelete