When you run after your thoughts, you are like a dog chasing a stick: every time a stick is thrown, you run after it. Instead, be like a lion who, rather than chasing after the stick, turns to face the thrower. One only throws a stick at a lion once. Milarepa “Just as it is known t hat an image of one's face is seen d epending on a mirror b ut does not really exist as a face, s o the conception of "I" exist d ependent on mind and body, b ut like the image of a face t he "I" does not at all exist as its own reality." Nagarjuna "Thanks to impermanence, everything is possible." Nagarjuna Lion's Roar - One of the largest rituals this country engages in is casting votes, to make our marks, to say something. We may cast a vote, not only for oneself, but, for those who are ill or incarcerated, for those who are illiterate, for those who have lost interest. We do this knowing that the outcome of voting is actually something we cannot r
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I agree with that video, which is why I ended up straying into libertarianism a few years ago.
ReplyDeleteI've been wavering in my libertarianism lately. I was never a hard core libertarian anyway.
Take the drug war. The only way decriminalization works is if we dismantle the welfare state. Right now, we shield people from their bad choices, and we would end up supporting dopeheads who have wrecked their lives and worse, the lives of their children.
Also, if drugs are legalized, that means they are taxed and regulated out the wazoo, making them expensive, creating a black market for smuggled drugs. We're back where we started.
I also don't believe in open borders, as true libertarians do, and while we are way overextended, I do not believe it is in our best interests to withdraw completely from the world.
I like Ron Paul, God bless him he's consistent, but I don't want a president that gets Osama in his gun sites but stands on principle and refuses to pull the trigger.
I love mises.org, CATO and Reason magazine, but I hate Lew Rockwell's blog. I guess to hardcore libertarians I'm just a squish.
Silver - I'm at the same point as you, philosphically. I detest open borders with no limits on the welfare state. I do think that the War on Drugs is a failure. I think that the key to accepting libertarianism is in challenging some of the ideology behind it. I don't like any rigid set of views and question everything at face value.
ReplyDeleteI'm rambling but I think what I am saying is that libertarianism most closely represents my views but I still deviate from some of the dogma associated with the movement.
Les - great video, I found this a while back, too.
I have no problem with legalization of marijuana and the decriminalization of minor possession of recreational drugs. But I certainly would not want to see a complete decriminzation of the illicit drug trade. I think that would be dangerously stupid.
ReplyDeleteAs for completely dismantling the welfare state, that would be even more dangerously stupid. You think we have crime now??? You'd be setting the stage for violent uprisings. Insane.
Libertarianism, ironically (it's all about individual freedom, after all), is a rigid, unadaptable ideology. Reality has always trumped libertarianism. Reality is always changing. Libertarianism stays the same.
JMJ
Hey! I finally figured out how to post here again!
ReplyDeleteI wasn't banned, was I???
I heard there was a problem with eblogger and google, but I couldn't figure it out. So I finally just went around it.
JMJ
Who let Jersey in? JK...
ReplyDeleteJersey: Libertarianism is logical, internally consistent. My point is that most major libertarian principles are of a whole piece and must be implemented together or it doesn't work.
As you so inartfully and erroneously pointed out, reality presents its own challenges.
Where I disagree with you is that timeless principles never change. Human nature does not change, and that is what libertarianism is grounded in.
All - Great comments and concerns.
ReplyDeleteI have always considered myself to be an independent conservative and classical liberal. As well as a staunch advocate of Rand's objectivism.
Neither the Republican nor the Democratic party is any longer aligned with a consistent and rational philosophy and or purpose.
While I continue to struggle with many of the same issues of Libertarianism you all have enunciated on this post I find it way more princiopledand grounded in the concept of liberty and individualism by far than either major party.
I will be supporting the alternative in 2012 and hope you consider joining me.
And TAO, unless you have a comment that is both germain and positive please don't bother to comment as it WILL be summarily deleted.
Almost forgot, my closing comment on prior pertains to Anon as well. But of course we all know you are one in the same.
ReplyDeleteSilver, you and I agree more with each other than with Les on some issues. Libertarianism doesn't always work in the real world. You pointed out a couple of examples, proving that yourself.
ReplyDeleteOh, and what is "JK" and how does it pertain to me?
JMJ
myself, I'd define each of you as "individualists".
ReplyDeletei say that because all of you, with the exception of Jersey, are opposed to collectivism.
and to remain consistent with that principle a person will not associate themselves with any political group, even the libertarian party.
reason:
every political party is a partisan collective. and geo. washington, himself, warned against partisan factions in his farewell address.
as Americans, we should concern ourselves with only two collectives, the first one being the collective of "the people". the second collective we should concern ourselves with is the collective of "the family".
as a member of the collective of the people the guiding principles can be found in the Constitution and in that there should be unity of thought.
as a member of the collective of the family the guiding principles can be found in the beliefs of the parents, both father and mother and in that there should be unity of thought.
Griper - Your point is well expressed as well as valid. I believe it is why "individualists" struggle with association within any "party."
ReplyDeleteHowever, in reality we should all strive to find that individual of principle and character that represents our beliefs and support him or her.
Agreed?
agreed, Rn.
ReplyDeletebut remember that does not allow one to support someone that is the most electable as we hear so often.
and it doesn't allow us to support someone just because we are against his opponent as we hear so often.
and that may require us to use the write-in box at times too when that man's name is not on the ballot.
and it doesn't allow us to worry if the best man wins or loses an election. the only thing we need to think about is if the man we support best represents us as individuals, thus the best man for the position in our minds.
and from what i said i will add this;
a family united is a strong family
the same is true of a nation.
it is divisiveness that results in a weak family as well as a weak nation.
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btw, jersey,
the best solution to the problems that is occurring in blogger and google commenting is to use the Firefox browser. the problem seems to disappear in that browser instead of IE.
Hey - thanks Griper!
ReplyDeleteJMJ
By the way, guys. Of course there is a vital place in society for libertarianism. Libertarianism, socialism, progressivism, conservatism, moralism, secularism, liberalism - these and many more philosophies and ideologies all play there parts in our civilization.
ReplyDeleteBut they are all ideologies, philosophies, epistemologies. When it comes to the care of our great republic, we must often balance these differing viewpoints with the necessities of reality. We must concede when our philosophies do not have the answers we're seeking.
This is why Silver and I, both from very different perspectives and for very different reasons, are not libertarians, though both of us are probably more libertarian (different kinds of libertarians) than most Americans. Less than you guys, though.
JMJ
JMJ - I am not a member of the Libertarian Party. I subscribe to the principles of the LP when they are aligned with liberty, strict interpretation of the Constitution, supporting the rights of property and the individual {more on that later, and stand in opposition to tyranny, any form of collectivism, and oppressive government control and regulation.
ReplyDeleteI am and independent conservative and classical liberal, I belong to no party and I know there are some things that that are black and white.
Sometimes grey is just not an option if you have principles. I guess it rests with each INDIVIDUAL to make the distinction.
In the meantime it certainly can be said some are independent voices in a very large crowd. Some more vocal than others.
And some are sheeples...
I toyed with the Libertarian Party in my twenties, but couldn't get past a single reality. If one wants to actually have an effect on our government, how can you justify joining a party that can't get elected?
ReplyDeleteLCR,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
"I'm rambling but I think what I am saying is that libertarianism most closely represents my views but I still deviate from some of the dogma associated with the movement."
And there it is. I believe there are a great many folks here in America who can relate to this.
We are not GOP, definitely not liberal, and somewhere in the middle of it all, looking about us wondering what the hell is wrong with the Big Two, and why so many people swallow their rhetoric hook, line, and sinker.
Donald in Bethel, CT
I should add I also believe strongly that it is time for a strong third party in America. With capable individuals supporting the LP's growth, combined with picking electable personalities the LP could have a significant impact. If nothing else it would hold the 2 majors feet to the fire.
ReplyDeleteAnd they do indeed need some "burning"!
Les,
ReplyDeleteHear, hear! Of course, both of The Big Two will rant and rave that a third party would only serve to weaken The Big Two. Um...isn't that the point?
There is more to governance than a donkey and an elephant. True story.
Donald in Bethel, CT
Les: I strongly disagree. A third party will bring us a 33% president. If you think it's chaos now, wait till we have a third party.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Ortega (Marxist), after being bounced by the Contras and beaten by Violeta Chamorro, returned to power a few years ago with 34% of the vote. The Sandinista party did it by appealing to the egos on the other side and getting them to split Ortega's opposition.
United we stand, divided we fall.
Also, the Republican party is not a philosophical movement, it is a race car in a two care race. That's it.
ReplyDeleteYou want contemporary political philosophy? Read CATO or Russell Kirk.
The GOP is just a means to political power.
"United we stand, divided we fall."
ReplyDeleteApparently both major parties have missed the point you made Silver. Or don't care, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Maybe a principled third party may just help. Given our current state I simply am okay with giving it a try.