Monday, June 21, 2010

Progressive Collectivism... The Motivation

By: Les Carpenter III
Rational Nation USA

All political movements start with a cause. That is to say they have a purpose and an agenda which the supporters of the cause believe will make their society a better place to live. History has shown that societies with the most intrusive and leviathan governments are the least effective and restrict the liberties of individuals too the greatest degree.

The classical liberals, whose philosophy of governance was anchored in the Enlightenment and The Age of Reason, believed in maximum liberty for the individual. They were wary of government, believing it was as much a force for evil as good. Classical Liberalism was about the individual, the rights of the individual, and the belief that the individual was not a vassal of the state, but rather should be the master of the state, limiting it's interference in the lives of the people.

I have been accused of not being able to recognize liberty or individualism if it bit me in the ass. From a proud progressive collectivist of course. Anyone wishing to read TAO's comment in full can do so here. In fact if one would like to read his recent rebuttal to my "From Classical Liberalism To Progressive Collectivism" you can find it at Corrupting Conservatives , I warn you though it is more of the same convoluted logic and fluff  from the progressive collectivist right. Still it is good to know the mind of one's adversaries.

Conservatives, Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley conservatives and Libertarians are the first to defend the principals upon which this nation was founded. For to be a conservative or Libertarian in the modern world in deed as well as in name is to recognize that liberty can only be realized when people are as free as possible to determine their own course with limited government interference. The classical liberals understood this and gave their lives to create a country built on these principals. A true conservative and Libertarian understands, admires, and respects the principals of classical liberalism.

The modern day liberal, or as my earlier article more accurately identifies as progressive collectivists, would be the first to deny the individuals pre eminence above the state and therefore are nothing more than obstacles to liberty. The modern day liberal, or progressive collectivist, simply fails to understand that Leviathan government and the nanny state are not compatible with liberty. Their motivation, the byline of this article, is simply this. Control. The progressive collectivists wishes to control society through big government and its regulatory tentacles thereby limiting liberty to that which Leviathan decides we are entitled to. Welcome back pre 18th century political thought, compliments of the progressive collectivists.

A side note, our friend TAO, I use the term friend loosely and with sarcasm here, seems to enjoy referencing the fact our founding fathers had slaves. This is certainly true of early America, as it would be for most  civilization at one time in world history. It is also true that the blacks of Africa sold their own brothers and sisters into slavery. As reprehensible, disgusting, and bigoted as the slave trade was it is because of our founding documents, and the efforts a later generation of classical liberals we eliminated the practice. I shall leave further comment to perhaps a future article.

Suffice it to say TAO is race baiting. The reality is that he and his fellow progressive collectivists will work to ensure that everyone loses liberty equally and the Leviathan government will be the arbiter of the scope and depth of the loss.


  1. I see you did a little sparring with Shaw Kenawe and Truth 101 as well. That's always a treat!

  2. Hack - And I enjoyed every moment of it! Actually looking forward to the next match. Working on the knockout punch.

  3. Our military's motto is "Country, Community, Family."

    So you disagree with our military with your devotion to the rights of the individual as opposed to the well being and security of our Nation RN.

    Our oceans. Our natural wonders. Our air. These are meant to be enjoyed by all of us. Your deluded line of thinking leads to only those rich or powerful enough to afford them deserve them.

    You are a fuedalist RN. I'm sure your masters on the right appreciate what a good serf you are. Perhaps this old union man better buy the cigars and wine for our meeting one day. Your lord would never allow you to make enough in wages to pay for luxuries only the blue bloods are entitled to.

  4. Lets take it one point at a time here Rational...

    You claim that slavery in the USA was okay since Africans themselves were selling their own brothers and sisters into slavery.

    It was okay for Jefferson to have slaves since they were sold into slavery by their fellew Africans.

    England abolished slavery much sooner than we did and they did not use 'our founding documents' to do so.

    Abe Lincoln was the one who abolished slavery and he was NOT a classical liberal, in the way you use the term, but as you yourself have acknowledged in a prior post, he was a statist progressive collectivist...who used the ultimate example of the force and power of the federal government to end slavery: the US military.

    Women did not get the right to vote until 1920 and landless white males were not given the right to vote until 1856. Thus, If we were to return to the intent of the Founding Fathers then we can state quite logically that they had no intent to allow women to vote nor did they believe that landless white males should have any voice in government.

    We could also look at society back in the days of our Founding Fathers and realize that there were no corporations, no big banks, and no Wall Street. There was no free markets, and no free trade.

    Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were also very much against America forming alliances with other countries, so we need to break off our support of Israel, because THAT goes against the original intent of our Founding Fathers...

    Then you can go ahead and tell your fellew path travlers, the neo conservatives that the Founding Fathers were against foreign intervention and a standing military.

    Ah, it would be nice to go back to where business was transacted among individuals, and that the person you dealt with in a business was the owner. It would be nice to go back to the days when we all worked the land and hunted for our own food...

  5. What? Is a response a group effort? Do you have to get approval from your superiors before you can post a response?

    If you are so sure of your philosophy, and believe so much in it then you should have been able to IM a response to me...considering you have the "knock out punch" all ready to deliver...

    Are you having a seance with the Founding Fathers?

  6. Troof: I was in the military over 20 years and I've never heard or seen that motto. Are you sure you're not talking about Red China's military?

    Notice how the lefties cannot rebut solid constitutional argument?

    TAO and Troof: You and your ilk are intellectually bereft! Big government welfare states are going bankrupt all over the globe, and you are screaming for more government. It's lunacy!

    Free market capitalism is the only intellectually coherent economic system and it has a history going back to biblical times.

    You say capitalism failed? WRONG! It succeeded. It succeeded in punishing the stupid, who thought loaning money to people who couldn't pay it back was a good idea. It punished our government (and we the taxpayers) for telling Wall Street we would cover their gambling debts.

    Subsidize stupidity and you get more of it.

    What do you offer in rebuttal?

  7. Silverfish: It's on the National Guard recruiting commercial. Why do you hate the National Guard?

    And we're calling for a government that does it's job where you and the rest of the deluded right toil for your master who benefit from a weak, inneffective government.

    It is because of your right wing masters we had to bail out the financial institutuion. It is because of them and their Reagan loving voluntary compliance and deregulation we have The Gulf of Mexico environmentally ruined for years if not decades.

    I know it's ard for you guys to admit you were duped. You've proved your ignorant stubbornness with your devotion to the Iraq occupation. But one day hopefully you will all remove the blinders you've chosen to wear in the name of whatever catch phrase RN or the RNC can think up on a given week. Then perhaps you can all turn your devotion to making America a more perfect union instead of continuing our descent into third world status thanks to the crime of supply side economics and corporate greed without conscience.

  8. Truth and TAO specifically... I will no longer dignify your deluded baseless assertions that have no grounding in reality.

    As I sit chuckling at the lunacy of the progressive collectivist hordes.

    The slaves to the masters that guide them into the darkness of the nanny state and servitude to their progessive collective masters.

    As they have no intellectual depth they resort to shallow assertions that are as laughable as they are delusional.

    Masters at twisting and spinning. Have your progressive collectivist pow wow's as I am quite certain they amuse you endlessly.

    Now go have yourselves another progressive collective day.

  9. Boys, is that the best you got? You go all over the internet demanding a debate and you got one and then neither Rational nor Silverfiddle can explain or enlighten....

    Can't get beyond the talking points and the soundbites can you?

  10. Silverfiddle...

    Free markets and capitalism have NOT been around since "biblical times.."

    Capitalism didn't come around till the industrial revolution and your idiotic comment flies in the face of "Render unto Ceasar....."

    But then what does truth have to do with anything?

  11. Capitalism has not been around since biblical times? Are you on crack? The whole Roman system was capitalism. Systems long before Rome were capitalistic. Have you read Hammurabi's code? It was established to govern a capitalistic society.

  12. Truth you said...

    I know it's ard for you guys to admit you were duped. You've proved your ignorant stubbornness with your devotion to the Iraq occupation. But one day hopefully you will all remove the blinders you've chosen to wear in the name of whatever catch phrase RN or the RNC can think up on a given week. Then perhaps you can all turn your devotion to making America a more perfect union instead of continuing our descent into third world status thanks to the crime of supply side economics and corporate greed without conscience.

    1) can the crap about Iraq. It was an intervention into a place we need not have went. BO continues the "occupation" and will do so to insure the military industrial complex is well fed.

    2)You continue to use the RNC in reference to me frequently, obviously to puppet your bud TAO. I do not subscribe to the RNC, I do not donate to the RNC, and I do not go to their state conventions. I am not a political hack, unlike yourself who has on several occasions acknowledged you are a hack.

    3) Your vision of how to make America a more perfect union is not my vision. We have significant differences, in fact diametrically opposed in many cases. I believe in liberty as a classical liberal saw it. The progressive collectivist believes in liberty as granted by them.

    4)While supply side economics has it's flaws, and I have never stated that it didn't as I realize that demand for a product of value that results in the production of goods is vitally important, your hero BO will do by far more to take us further on the downward spiral than Reagan ever could have.

    5) What I find so comical is your, and your bro TAO's blame Reagan Blame Bush Blame Reagan Blame Bush chorus. They both had their faults, especially GB who did more to sour me on government than any prior post WW II president with the possible exception of Nixon because of his irresponsible fiscal behavior and interventionist foreign policy. I believe in a strong and efficient lean and mean defense. Just as I believe in sound fiscal management and a more limited role for the federal government.

    These are not talking points, they are positions I do not veer from. If you choose to berate them so be it. I frankly don' give a rat's arse.

    If it makes you wish to here it I question why I voted for Bush the second time. I know I could not have voted for he greater evil but I could have just not voted. However, my grandparents and parents, democrats all, taught me that voting is not only our right but our responsibility. Because they believed strongly that to insure we retain our right to vote we must exercise it each time i\the vote came around. They believed in knowing the issues and then voting for the man most likely to reflect the values this country was built on.

    Quaint I know, and perhaps the concept of the lesser of two evils might be found in there somewhere, or perhaps the best of the worse.

    At any rate have a fine day. Do your thing and I will do mine. Forgive me my 58 years but I have learned bit. And the strongest lesson I have learned is the progressive collectivist are ruining this country. I will do whatever little bit I can to expose their flawed ideology. Statism and progressive collectivism comes in more than one variant. I leave it to you and your bro TAO to figure out what that means. I did a long time ago.

  13. TAO - Hey dimwit, I am on my way to work when you posted your comment AT 9:13 PM.

    I respond when I get a chance to break and if I feel like it.

    Hey Trestin - great point. I knew TAO was blowing smoke but I just couldn't put my finger on the supporting evidence. Thanks a bunch for correcting the Chairman's error.

  14. Trestin, put down the bong and pick up a book...

    The Romans used slave labor and fuedal landholdings to produce goods....

    That's not capitalism....

    Now go grow up and get yourself an education..

  15. Les, do you ever get tired of these individuals that are so void of any semblance of integrity twisting your words into straw men? I commend you for your patience.

  16. >Capitalism has not been around since biblical times?

    Capitalism (in the sense of a non-coercive, free market system) is the earliest and most fundamental form of economy. Its essence is free-will exchange of goods and services, whether through bartering or the use of a common currency. Throughout history, the disappearance of that system has always coincided with (and resulted from) the institution of some form of totalitarian government.

    One of the problems with so many of the totalitarian-collectivist goofballs (such as American "liberals") that try to talk about economic issues is that they're economic illiterates. (A recent study very nicely demonstrates this.) And, of course, they are decidedly opposed to liberty. Although they want permissiveness--not tolerance--in moral issues and to be "enabled" or "empowered" (at somebody else's expense, of course) in financial issues, they appear to confuse liberty with such coddling that always comes at the expense of others.

    When they try to spew the usual froth at me, I usually just tell them to go read Bastiat, and then we'll talk. Rarely do they bring up the issue again, and if they do, it is from a decidedly altered perspective. Bastiat will do that.

  17. I have read Bastiat...and within your own definition of capitalism you have explained exactly why capitalism has not existed since the beginning of time...

    But of course I doubt if you will see it...

  18. This comment has been removed by the author.

  19. TAO-I have a degree in Anthropology. I think you lack a understanding of the nature of Capitalism. This is why you fear it as you do.

    I know many on the left, that can argue points ague as an intelligent human being. You seem to be coming at the issue with the emotional maturity of a six year old.

  20. Trestin...

    I will match your degree with a double major and a masters degree..

    Further, I have owned a business and been involved in capitalism for over 20 years...

    So, save your smart ass childish comments for somebody who gives a shit...

    I have never said I fear capitalism....but I said that capitalism has not been with us since the beginning of time...

  21. >I have read Bastiat

    She said with a wink.

    Young lady, from the types of comment that you have made, I would be surprised if you had ever even heard of Bastiat, let alone read more than a few pages.

    Your statement that within my "definition of capitalism [I] have explained exactly why capitalism has not existed since the beginning of time" is as ridiculous as it is incoherent, and makes it thoroughly clear that you have no grasp of economic concepts nor of the nature of exchange in ancient societies. So, go actually read Bastiat, read a few anthropological studies of exchange, and learn a bit about the types of economy that existed even before the rise of national states, and then maybe you'll be able to engage coherently in a discussion on the subject. Otherwise, you may return to Oprah.

  22. Bastiat...

    Well, you got my sex wrong, you got my age wrong...

    In fact you are just wrong...

    I think you just might need to get your facts right before you go off and debate someone...

    Otherwise just stick to your general blather that is not directed to anything or anyone...

  23. >you got my sex wrong, you got my age wrong.

    Ah, my most sincere apologies. I naturally assumed from the tone, style, and content of your comments that you were a naive young girl. Next time I will be sure to make a more thorough confirmation.

  24. Well, so now we know your judgement is not all that you like to assume it is...

    If your judgement is faulty then so is your information.

  25. >If your judgement is faulty then so is your information.

    You're right. The information that I was using for my judgment was your comments, which continue to be truly faulty.

  26. And so now we know for certain after Bastiatarians complete trashing of tao's progressive collectivist arguments (as well as Trestin's) just how truly locked into the box he is!

    Goodnight TAO. You have just had your ass handed to you on a platter!


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