tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post1971926415210387080..comments2024-03-29T07:18:10.425-04:00Comments on Rational Nation USA: The Obama Ten Year OutlookLes Carpenterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01120280762698472496noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-59778234678181990392010-03-07T17:34:05.899-05:002010-03-07T17:34:05.899-05:00Donald,
Cigarette butts have no fat and are rich i...Donald,<br />Cigarette butts have no fat and are rich in fiber. You may be onto something man!Osohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09513535195785731541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-12158706359689541802010-03-07T17:24:53.341-05:002010-03-07T17:24:53.341-05:00Hey Don,
I used to manufacture corrugated boxes b...Hey Don,<br /><br />I used to manufacture corrugated boxes before I became a manager of the facility that manufactured them.<br /><br />If it should ever become necessary maybe you and I could go into manufacturing of low cost wax impregnated corrugated material to build houses.<br /><br />JUST A THOUGHT. :-)<br /><br />Long Live American Capitalism and the Republic!Les Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120280762698472496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-80885134099805235332010-03-07T15:51:52.623-05:002010-03-07T15:51:52.623-05:00@Truth 101,
You said:
"I keep saying before ...@Truth 101,<br /><br />You said:<br />"I keep saying before the day is through every one of you, and that includes you Donald, will demand government do something about something. Responsible government doesn't cost a dime because it saves us far more than we spend on it f run correctly."<br />------------------------------<br /><br />Not me, ever. But I appreciate the confidence you have in your prediction.<br /><br />I will live in a cardboard box and eat cigarette butts before I willingly abdicate my personal freedoms to suckle on the teats of the Federal government.Donald Borsch Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14777550985529022698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-50734118886540599642010-03-07T14:43:12.836-05:002010-03-07T14:43:12.836-05:00Truth - You said... "Responsible government d...Truth - You said... "Responsible government doesn't cost a dime because it saves us far more than we spend on it f run correctly."<br /><br />I speak only for myself, on this statement we can agree to agree.<br /><br />Where we will disagree is that I subscribe to the notion that limited government, with the least intrusion into private business and an individuals personal life works by far more effectively than that which you espouse.<br /><br />Let me assure you that I understand the destitution that poor economic times can result in. My grandfather and grandmother lived through the Great Depression and experienced the dislocation and hardships that it brought with it first hand. My point here is that they never, not once asked for nor excepted help from the government. Relocation, bouncing around to locate whatever work was available the did. Accept welfare or live off the government teat ABSOLUTELY not.<br /><br />My grandparents epitomize that which America once stood for. I am of their blood and spirit and as such do not pretend to tell me what I (and millions like me) might do if we experience further economic troubles.<br /><br />Responsible government may not cost a dime-as you say. Our government however has been irresponsible going back to Richard Nixon and moving forward from there. GWG was the worst with respect to fiscal responsibility.<br /><br />This of course is only one man's opinion. The fact it is true I suppose is irrelevant.Les Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120280762698472496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-66897017122977192252010-03-07T13:44:31.867-05:002010-03-07T13:44:31.867-05:00Deregulation and lack of government oversite led t...Deregulation and lack of government oversite led to our problems today. Just as savings and loans were deregulated in the 80's costing taxpayers billions. This time it was trillions. The alternative was depression. And that assessment came from economists from both political persuasions. <br /><br /><br /> I keep saying before the day is through every one of you, and that includes you Donald, will demand government do something about something. Responsible government doesn't cost a dime because it saves us far more than we spend on it f run correctly.Joe "Truth 101" Kellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08875151516978133598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-13188033396302995802010-03-07T12:36:56.978-05:002010-03-07T12:36:56.978-05:00Oso - A quick thought is that when he economy reco...Oso - A quick thought is that when he economy recovers and people are back to work (I doubt however we will ever again see 3-4% unemployment) and private spending picks up not much will happen.<br /><br />The government that will continue to grow under the new world order mentality and the increasing US socialism under Obama (and likely future administration).<br /><br />The answer to the problem will be to increase government spending, raise taxes, and deficit whatever the government feels necessary to keep an economy and national economic house built on sand afloat.<br /><br />I am not holding my breath for real economic growth to return anytime soon to America. Perhaps if we could find the will to rebuild our manufacturing infrastructure and stop exporting jobs to foreign countries, and actually determine favorable trading policies to the US perhaps I will change my mind.<br /><br />The current generation of policy makers on both sides of the frigging aisle are "lost in a cloud of euphoric self denial."Les Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120280762698472496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-6527719431196641652010-03-07T11:13:08.270-05:002010-03-07T11:13:08.270-05:00Hi RN,
Your analogy of a household spending on cre...Hi RN,<br />Your analogy of a household spending on credit then relying on future OT/investments to pay it back down and comparing it to my example does indeed show the pitfalls of profligate spending.<br /><br />But one difference is, a household or business (or a state I guess) has to earn before it can spend.Either it earns or dips into savings or borrows. A sovereign government can create money. Since the US is no longer bound to gold and the dollar floats there is no outside constraint on money creation.<br /><br />As the economy recovers tax revenue and people going off unemployment will lessen the deficit.Private spending will then pick up so govt spending can come down.<br /><br />At that point inflation may become a concern as well as fear of govt debt crowding out investors but that's in the future.<br /><br />Anyway, that's the way I look at it but like I mentioned in a reply to Donald I have the same economic training as my cat-none. Simply based on liberal (pun intended)use of a library card.Osohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09513535195785731541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-16199653432542109102010-03-07T10:29:41.649-05:002010-03-07T10:29:41.649-05:00Fredd - Unfortunately you are likely right. We can...Fredd - Unfortunately you are likely right. We can only hope that come November things actually change for the better.<br /><br />I fear the old saying... "The more things change the more they sat the same."<br /><br />It remains to be seen if their are ANY politicians that have integrity and speak with and honest voice.<br /><br />It is why we blog I guess.Les Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120280762698472496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-26526534809906107832010-03-07T10:24:18.243-05:002010-03-07T10:24:18.243-05:00Oso - I am certainly no financial expert and don&#...Oso - I am certainly no financial expert and don't pretend to be. It does seem however that you have bought into the Keynesian economic theories that have gotten into this mess.<br /><br />A household is a microcosm of a larger economy. <br /><br />Following your reasoning if I were in financial difficulties I would increase reliance on credit, balloon my personal budget deficit, and plan that when things improved and I was pulling in money from overtime or rebounding return on my investments my deficit would eventually take care of itself.<br /><br />Oso, I realize that my response is an oversimplification. I simply struggle to understand how a government with over 106 trillion in under or unfunded liabilities and a 12 + trillion dollar national debt can expect to sustain it forever. Which seems to be the mindset of politicians and government officials on both sides of the aisle.<br /><br />As you said history shows us growing our way out of dept worked best. Until we all became Keynesian advocates. Deficit spending works in theory, in practice it is IMO quite another reality looking long term.Les Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120280762698472496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-77510378329175309492010-03-07T09:39:19.180-05:002010-03-07T09:39:19.180-05:00Gene - We must absolutely maintain a strong nation...Gene - We must absolutely maintain a strong national defense. However there is a difference between maintaining a strong defense and funding an interventionist foreign policy around the globe. <br /><br />Dwight D Eisenhower had it exactly right in 1961 when he warned against of the Military Industrial Complex.<br /><br />It is to bad that every succeeding administration, beginning LBJ has ignored the wisdom of a Republican that was a republican when it really meant something. <br /><br />As to your conspiratorial closing comment, you just might be right on this one. Although I would assume should the occur it would be funded by the industrial side of the equation with a complicit wink fro the military side. Having said this I am not big on conspiracy theories.Les Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120280762698472496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-57936715112457122202010-03-07T08:15:37.009-05:002010-03-07T08:15:37.009-05:00I'm all for spending cuts, but we both know it...I'm all for spending cuts, but we both know it's not going to happen. The misnamed Department of Defense garnered 5 Trillion under Bush. The DoD budget, despite the Fox News Liars, has gone up under Obama. <br /><br />The DoD and Pentagon will never let their budgets shrink and every President knows if he actually did cut into them, he'd have a grassy knoll waiting for him...Grung_e_Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01894879088472559055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-84101949148096430992010-03-06T23:15:24.357-05:002010-03-06T23:15:24.357-05:00Donald,
of course I don't take it as a persona...Donald,<br />of course I don't take it as a personal attack, that's only if you say things about the Dodgers or Raiders!<br /><br />My first reply somehow disappeared into cyberspace when I hit preview so I'm gonna try to reconstruct it.<br /><br />Let me address the last part first, the Bailout. I believe we are essentially in agreement here.<br />Because the separation between commercial and investment banks was lifted, in some cases payment processing (payroll/inventory purchase/short term borrowing) passed thru the big institutions. I believe they should have been propped up, for the greater good.As for those involved in speculation, the insolvent ones should have been allowed to fail.It would have caused havoc in the stock market but ultimately I think knowing the institutions still standing were viable would have quickly restored investor confidence.<br /><br />Regarding the govt throwing $ at the problem,I kinda am saying that but please bear with me as I try to explain my reasoning.<br /><br />Our economy is made up of a govt sector and private sector (households/business/foreign trade) and must ultimately balance out, if one sector net saves the other must net spend. Slick Bill balanced the federal budget, so tax revenue exceeded govt spending. This put pressure on the private sector to increase spending, hence the tech boom/bubble/recession handed to GWB.<br /><br />Now what we got got is a badly in debt private sector.People/business need to pay down their debt plus build up their saving. So since the private sector isn't spending but saving,Aggregate Demand(consumption/inventory)must be fueled by govt sector spending.<br /><br />Historically it has been best to grow our way out of debt,by growing the economy so instead of cutting debt level you cut the debt to GDP ratio.<br /><br />I realize two people can look at the same thing and come up with completely different yet workable solutions. I'm a phone tech, I read both liberal and conservative economists to come up with my way of looking at things.<br /><br />I'm sorry this is such a long-winded reply;I wanted you to understand there was a reason behind my thought process rather than just expecting the govt to throw $ at the problem.Osohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09513535195785731541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-54434136468576182542010-03-06T21:25:25.911-05:002010-03-06T21:25:25.911-05:00@Oso,
You said:
"As far as the greater econo...@Oso,<br /><br />You said:<br />"As far as the greater economy goes, govt deficit spending is the only viable course. The private sector too deeply in debt to allow the government to cut back on spending."<br />---------------------------------------<br /><br />I'm trying to wrap my head around your reasoning here. <br /><br />At what point, when a person is in debt, is it wise to spend money they don't have? <br />I am no financial whiz by any stretch of the imagination, but even I understand that concept. Oso, am I out-of-line to take from your comments that you believe government can make all the Nation's problems go away by throwing enough of our money at them?<br /><br />And as to the government rescuing the private sector through spending, wow! I really don't get that one, sorry! Could you put your thoughts on this issue into words for me to digest?<br /><br />Private sector businesses should be allowed to fail. Bush and Congress, in 2008 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/business/20auto.html?_r=1), spent billions of our American taxpayer money to "save" and "bailout" failing American car companies who, quite honestly, dicked-up and then ran to Uncle Sam like paupers and victims. It was not only embarrassing, it was infuriating. This attitude is, IMO, un-American.<br /><br />Americans strive, fight, and never ever relent. Having Uncle Sam bail anything out is a travesty and a sad commentary on the entitlement mentality so prevalent today.<br /><br />Please do not take that as a personal attack upon yourself, Oso. I do not know you outside of RN USA, so I could hardly speak to your character. However, it does sadden me to see you espouse such a mindset that government is the solution. <br /><br />Lately, government is the problem.Donald Borsch Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14777550985529022698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-44066432762647425172010-03-06T20:33:08.967-05:002010-03-06T20:33:08.967-05:00Les I forgot to add - at the risk of sounding like...Les I forgot to add - at the risk of sounding like a Republican:)- I don't feel there's a need to raise taxes at this time, since tax revenue will increase anyway once employment rises. Being optimistic here. Maybe corporate taxes could go up I guess,it's my understanding that when corporate tax rates go up investment in capital (and wages)goes up since most businesses would understandably rather sink profits back into the business rather than fork it over to the govt.Osohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09513535195785731541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-89750578969625575652010-03-06T20:28:11.717-05:002010-03-06T20:28:11.717-05:00Most of the budget deficit is automatic stabilizer...Most of the budget deficit is automatic stabilizers. Given an eventual recovery the deficit will shrink accordingly.<br /><br />As far as the greater economy goes, govt deficit spending is the only viable course. The private sector too deeply in debt to allow the government to cut back on spending.<br /><br />It would be wise for the politicians to prioritize discretionary spending. Slash military waste which doesn't benefit the economy, spend money instead on job creation.<br /><br />Keep in mind all our public debt is in USD, hence no chance of default.It won't all come due at once. Public debt is always rolled over, it's like that with all nations.Osohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09513535195785731541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-84424584490103498982010-03-06T19:32:59.811-05:002010-03-06T19:32:59.811-05:00Obviously, nothing will change until the first Tue...Obviously, nothing will change until the first Tuesday in November. Up to that point, however, the fires that have broken out here and there in response to Obama's massive lurch to the left will likely be raging forest fires, and the right's voter turnout will probably be the biggest ever.Freddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10778430453468720627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-48018231399513842502010-03-06T17:42:40.597-05:002010-03-06T17:42:40.597-05:00Don - Bipartisanship is a two way street and it se...Don - Bipartisanship is a two way street and it seems as though independent conservatives travel that pathway more frequently and with greater ease than many on the left.<br /><br />Oso is one who I have grown to have respect for as at least he retains an open mind and listens and considers alternatives. A rare attribute in many on the left.Les Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01120280762698472496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8549971354391868786.post-15739217393225009632010-03-06T16:27:31.749-05:002010-03-06T16:27:31.749-05:00RN,
You said:
"In the spirit of bipartisansh...RN,<br /><br />You said:<br />"In the spirit of bipartisanship... both the past and present administration seem oblivious to the snowballing dangers to our national security."<br />------------------------<br /><br />I really cannot come up with anything to add to your post. You nailed it.<br /><br />Now hopefully we can move past the cliches and knee-jerk talking points of the Big Two and speak openly and rationally with one another.Donald Borsch Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14777550985529022698noreply@blogger.com