Wednesday, February 5, 2014

Setting the Record Straight...

by: Les Carpenter
Rational Nation USA
Purveyor of Truth


Representative Paul Ryan (R-WI), that evil republican according to many democrats and progressives, unlike some of his conservative counterparts chose to help set the record straight in regards to what the CBO said about ObamaCare this week and it's affect on jobs. Kudos to Representative Ryan for his effort to insure the truth world be understood.

TPM ARTICLE BELOW THE FOLD.

Kudos also to the left leaning TPM for their recognition of Ryan doing the right thing. It was refreshing to see.

Via: Memeorandum

46 comments:

  1. I haven't seen the CBO metrics, but is hard to imagine either companies laying off OR people up and quitting once they have health insurance. There has been a growing number of part-time workers with
    a percentage hoping for full time. Others, students, mothers etc. are in it for the $$ not the insurance.
    I know of a number of older workers with the means to retire that are hanging on just for the insurance until they become medicare eligible. From a business standpoint, getting out of health
    insurance as part of a benefits package is attractive; hence the proclivity for hiring part-time. It is
    hard to conceive of anyone deciding to just quit their job because they have health insurance: will
    they go on the dole; find happiness in homelessness? I'm not sure the GOP, the CBO, Ryan, the Dems et. al. have any hard numbers and will await hard data before I jump in. (angels fear to tread)

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  2. an interesting comment by one of our best commenters, by far....

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  3. I don't understand why health insurance is tied to the workplace at all. It makes no sense to me. I wrote about this in a different way today (http://jerseymcjones.blogspot.com/), if you're interested.

    That said, good for Ryan for at least acknowledging a truth in the numbers - a lot of the work hours reduced will be by choice, and for many people that could mean early retirement, more time for school or family, etc. It's not a bad thing. If anything, the unemployment rolls should go down overall and demand rise some more. We need that now.

    Good for you for pointing this out. And yes, Ryan should not be underestimated as just some clownish Tea guy by the Left. I think he realizes the GOP may well lie themselves into a bad political spot down the road. They'd be wise to follow his lead.

    JMJ

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  4. I fully agree with BB,but the spin the White House tried to put on the CBO report was truly off the hook.I mean...how can a two million job reduction be good news and say the option to not work gives people time with their family and kids.......this is something from the bizarre world.

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  5. One instance of truth telling does not make one not evil. You can't lie all the time and expect people to not catch on. I agree with both BB-Idaho's and Jersey's comments.

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  6. One instance DS? Right. See what I mean people?

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    1. "See what I mean?" No, RN, I don't see what you mean. I meant the instance you refer to. I'm sure he's told the truth a few time previously, and may tell the truth again in the future. He's also lied in the past, and I expect more lies from him in the future.

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    2. Not at all surprised that YOU don't.

      All politicians lie. Including the sitting president and other democrats.

      But thanks for your Ack. he did the right thing.

      Carry on....

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    3. The editorial/opinion piece DS linked to provided nothing of value. Instead of pointing out Ryan lies, it presented its own lies and dubious spin, but no corrections. For example, Ryan is quite correct on the Janesville plant, which closed well into the Obama administration (in April 2009) instead of before his inauguration.

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    4. Correct, RN. All politicians lie. Ryan is hardly the worst in this regard. And to check his veracity, places like think progress, media matters, etc are just places to go for spin and retorts, not fact checking. Just exactly like Limbaugh is not one to trust to tell us when/if Obama is lying. Same thing.

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    5. You are very welcome, RN. I am very pleased that I could assist you in filling your "ack" requirements. Even though, I must confess, I do not know what "ack" is. As for your suggestion that I "carry on"... I shall carry on, you can rest assured.

      In regards to Dennis' claim about Ryan being "quite correct", Politifact says "actually, the plant closed before he even took office" and rates Ryan's statement FALSE.

      PolitiFact: The plant was effectively shut down on Dec. 23, 2008, when GM ceased production of SUVs there and laid off 1,200 workers. ... So, the plant closed while Bush was still in office, about a month before Obama was inaugurated.

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    6. Ack --- Acknowledge, Acknowledged, Acknowledgement

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    7. Accordung to the Janesville Gazette, the plant stayed open still into 2009 building Isuzu trucks. "Closed" means something, and closed factories of course do not have lines running: they are closed and produce nothing. The plant in fact did close long after Obama took office.

      Score: Ryan 1, the lame opinion site that called Ryan a liar 0. Relevant to the case that Ryan is some sort of pathological liar, which had not been made yet in any serious way.

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    8. The "lame opinion site" I linked to originally was ThinkProgress. Then I linked to PolitiFact. Are they also a "lame opinion site"? The plant laid off a majority of it's workers and shut down most of it's lines. A few workers stayed on to the date you mention to finish an order. But everything was set in motion to close the plant, which is why PolitiFact says"the plant closed while Bush was still in office, about a month before Obama was inaugurated". Ryan was suggesting Obama could or should have done something (even though the decision had been made and most of the workers were gone)... PolitiFact says FALSE to Ryan's assertion. Ryan was trying to deceive voters. No matter how Dennis spins it that is the truth.

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    9. Thanks for acknowledging that the Democratic Party campaign site, ThinkProgress, is a "lame opinion site". It is as laughable to quite from it as it is to quite Limbaugh. Politifact has also been shown to have major bias, its claim of the big lie of 2012 concerning Romney and plants in China has turned out to be something Romney was correct on

      I have learned from Mr. Sanders a rather novel and unusual version of the word "closed", in which a factory with unlocked doors .... one in which workers and other staff come and go, and product is shipped out from the loading dock is considered to be "closed".

      Either that or Mr. Sanders, in an attempt to make a case which he has definitely lost, is intentionally ignoring very specific facts about a situation in favor of incorrect general reports. On this specific matters, Ryan was not trying to deceive voters at all, as he told the truth and was 100% correct: the plant was, by any definition and standard of the word "open", open months into the Obama administration.

      While Mr. Sanders is quite alone in thinking that calling a David "Dennis" is any kind of insult. rest assured I am not spinning a thing when I mention the fact that a plant with workers in it producing product is definitely open. The idea that such a plant is closed is a very dead horse.

      Paul Ryan told the truth on the matter in the parent post, and concerning the Janesville plant,

      "When GM officials announced last June that SUV production would cease in Janesville, they also said that medium-duty truck production would conclude by the end of 2009, or sooner if market conditions dictate. - See more at: http://gazettextra.com/news/2009/feb/02/workers-isuzu-line-keep-building-medium-duty-truck/

      That's journalism, not political campaign press releases.

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    10. Why the GM Janesville assembly plant closing remains an issue is beyond me. From everything I have read the decision to phase out production and end operations in 2009 wa made during the Bush administration by GM management.

      My considered view after reading several accounts is Ryan was guilty of spinning the facts to suit a political agenda. Something many polliticians all parties do.

      I consider the Janesville plant closing old news and therefore settled after 5 years. Everyone has their own determination as to the facts likely won't change them.

      No sense beating an already dead horse to death is there fellas?

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    11. Thanks...Mr. Sanders, if he wants to prove his point, might instead bring up something by Ryan which is actually a lie and recent...which he did neither. But even that might be a sort of moribund equine eight out of the gate.

      Regardless, Ryan is no Bachmann, Pelosi, or Gohmert.

      -- David (aka "Dennis" to those with netcrushes on me)

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  7. Good for Ryan. It's always refreshing to read about a politician telling the truth.

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  8. It's always terribly sad when a basically good person like Paul Ryan allows himself to be persuaded that compromising with the Devil (i.e. unprincipled, perverse, indubitably harmful policies destructive of liberty and the chance for individual upward mobility) in order to keep his job or in the mistaken belief that giving a little now, may make it possible to gain a great deal later on.

    The old saying "Give 'em and inch, and they'll take a yard" has strengthened and developed frighteningly to "Give 'em an inch and they'll take over the world."

    Liberty never has been and never will be gained by diplomatic negotiations. It must be gained and maintained by BRUTE FORCE.

    The alternative to occasional periods of bloody sacrifice and horror is nothing more or less than de facto SLAVERY.

    These wars in defense of liberty would become unnecessary only if the populace is sufficiently educated as to be immune to the blandishments of sophists, the chicanery of charlatans, and the deviltry of demagogues.

    Unless and until mankind turns away -- once and for all -- from following The Paths of Least Resistance in its eternal Quest for The Easy Way Out, would-be tyrants will impose their will on populations by promising them something for nothing.

    It's really nothing more than the story of Faust applied to "The People" instead of to an individual.

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    Replies
    1. Maintenance of liberty by brute force seems a bit oxymoronic.

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  9. Liberty more often than not is gained through by the use of brute force.

    Maintaining liberty against the potential threat from ambitious foreign powers requires a vigilant and ready military.

    Maintaing liberty in our republic requires education, a sound economy able to provide opportunity for all who WANT it, and the ability to understanding and mutual cooperation.

    Maintaining liberty in a society of some 300 plus million also requires the ability and desire to put the interests of people in total above party or ideological interests.

    Failing to do the above will result in perpetual animosity, strife, and ultimately civil war.

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  10. News items of the week:

    1 - The debate between Bill Nye, the science guy, and Ken Ham of Rannygazoo fame;

    2 – The CBO Report forecasting the impact of ObamaCare on ‘voluntary’ employment.

    Of the first, I can build an entire ontology around nonsense words. Think of the Rannygazoo, a mythological being, greater than great, of which nothing greater can be conceived. Since it is ‘greater’ to exist in reality than in the mind alone, I can prove the existence of the great and powerful Rannygazoo, who rules the Universe (and whose “name shall not be taken in vain,” as commanded by the great, great Rannygazoo Himself). The same logic applies to the great and almighty Taradiddle, who presides over all things Fiddlefaddle.

    About the CBO Report, ObamaCare will set you free, but not in the mind of Rannygazoo. Since ObamaCare will make people less dependent on employers for health insurance, they can retire early, start a business, pursue a degree, or spend more time with their families without fear of losing their health care coverage. OMG, “ObamaCare will kill the incentive to work,” claims the worshippers of Rannygazoo and Taradiddle.

    Whether magical thinking drives ontology, or the reverse, this is how opinions get mired in muck.

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  11. In GOPer world, telling the truth is a "compromise?"

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  12. Really, there is no need for hyperbole. Especially since if you like your plan you can keep your plan... If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor... You will save 2500 dollars in health insurance cost a year, ect.

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  13. "if you like your plan you can keep your plan... If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor..."

    For millions of consumers, insurance companies have changed plans every year. For decades, insurance companies have raised premiums - far higher than the base inflationary rate. For HMO subscribers, insurance companies have dropped doctors and reassigned news ones to increase profitability - of the insurance companies. For decades, insurance companies have set benefit maximums and/or dropped subscribers when they were no longer profitable. An estimated 50 million people could not get insurance coverage due to a pre-existing condition - even for trivial stuff such as acne, or major stuff like asthma, or deny coverage to any woman of childbearing age. Word to the wise: Never make a promise that you expect an insurance company to keep, but you can always blame a president for anything you want - especially the Manchurian candidate from Kenya. And if the president mandated insurance companies to keep those promises, then everyone would call him a dictator. Heads, the president looses; tails, the president looses.

    When you run of of scapegoats, then what?

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    Replies
    1. You (O)CT(O)PUS, not I brought up the Manchurian Candidate (the orginal by the way was an Excellent movie), a Freudian slip? :-)

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  14. If business needs these 2.5 million to remain in the workforce to produce the goods and services to meet demand, I'm sure that business will do something to attract those people - like maybe paying more in salaries and wages.

    Or maybe, in the eyes of the right wing, "labor" is somehow supposed to be prevented from making a rational financial calculation to determine whether to work or not. Workers are supposed to line up, clamoring for whatever crumbs drop from the tables of job creators. The workforce is supposed to consist of every able-bodied man, woman, and child from age 8 to 89.

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  15. "If business needs these 2.5 million to remain in the workforce to producethe goods services to meet demand, I'm sure that business will do something to attract those people..."

    Agreed (O)CT(O)PUS.

    The rest reads like the typical class warfare rhetoric IMNHO. There may be some "right wing" business leaders who think the way you describe, I've met very few.

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    1. True, and perhaps pure hyperbole, too. Is there actually a movement to lower the working age to 8? I'd like to know about it, if so.

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    2. RN: The rest reads like the typical class warfare rhetoric IMNHO.

      Sure, because the Repubs are waging a war against the middle class and the poor. Surely RN has heard the Warren Buffet quote. IMO it is delusional to deny the reality that the system is rigged. Yet some do. If this comment is published I may get a reply from one of the deniers.

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    3. Nap time instead of coffee breaks?

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    4. It was published Mr. Sanders.

      Have at it all.

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  16. dmarks: " Is there actually a movement to lower the working age to 8? I'd like to know about it, if so."

    Maine GOP Legislators Looking To Loosen Child Labor Laws

    Taking Aim at Child Labor Laws

    And this from the last presidential debates:

    "For over a week, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R) has been suggesting that poor children should be in the workforce. He has said that janitorial jobs are appropriate for children, and has lauded the idea of 5-year-olds working."

    SOURCE

    So, yes, dmarks, a very prominent conservative, Newt Gingrich, suggested that laws should be changed to allow young children to work.

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    1. Thanks for the answer, Shaw. So that part of Octo's statement is less hyperbole than it would have been otherwise. Even though these views aren't mainstream in any quarter, and even the GOP said "Nyet" to Gingrich.

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    2. I took the time to read the Maine story. It does not loosen child labor laws at all.. I read it from front to end. There's no work below age 16 in this. It remains the same as before. Newt's suggestion does count as something close to what Octo described. But not the Maine legislators', as the minimum working age would not get any closer to 8. The ability for employers to pay workers from age 16 to 19 the fair value of the work in those cases where the value of the work is lower than some arbitrary level set without regard to anything isn't a bad idea, for that matter.

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  17. Eight is a perfectly good number in my book. It describes the number "legs" I have, or "arms," or other anthropomorphic names you attribute to my kind. There is another word, but I hesitate to use it in this forum because of a marked tendency here to snark and bark at anything that sounds foreign to you. Nevertheless, I can tell you this: The sound of the word resembles a part of the human body that prevails over their higher faculties, or to put it more bluntly: "All balls and no brains," a description of human beings who would sooner roll back the clock of civilization to a more Dickensian time when naked children ran in the streets - with pee running down their legs - and dead bodies were carted away in wooden wagons. What a mess you people are, a lemming species!

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  18. Replies
    1. RN,
      Mark my words. There will come a time when cephalopods will be farm-raising human beings, and you will be grateful as hell because, left to your own devices, you'll make yourselves extinct within a thousand years.

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  19. Perhaps. In the meantime I shall continue to have octopus as a low fat high peotien staple in my dietary plan.

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    Replies
    1. In the end, it all comes down to calimari....

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  20. I much prefer octopus over its smaller and and less delectable cousin, squid.

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    Replies
    1. RN, you get awarded the bumper sticker that says "I8OCTOPI"

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    2. dmarks, cute play on words and number?

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    3. Actually I meant "I8OCTOÏ€"

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  21. Yuck it up all you want. A decade ago when I undertook this Kafka transformation from doomed humanoid to enlightened cephalopod, I chose the Platonic abstract ideal as my archetype.

    The "abstract ideal" defined: You can take any real object in the real world, such as table or chair and chop it into kindling and burn it, but you can never destroy the "concept" of a table or chair, which are immutable, enduring and indestructible.

    As a Platonic "abstract ideal of a cephalopod, I am immutable, indestructible and - assuredly - inedible. They say a humanoid tastes like veal. I am not sure about that. From what I am told, most are gamey and more septic than a dog's mouth no matter where they lick themselves.

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