Sunday, January 23, 2011

National Date Night 2011

by: Les Carpenter
Rational Nation USA
Birthplace of Independent Conservatism

As the upcoming SOTU address approaches, and Republicans and Democrats are reaching across the aisle and pairing up to sit next to each other,  pundits are having a ball with it all. Even calling it "Date Night."

The SOTU is a serious evening for the American people, or at least it ought to be. What we are witnessing however, at least from some politicians and political pundits, is what amounts to a negative {or frivolous} slant on efforts of a number of legislators that have decided to present the appearance at least of bipartisanship.

So just what the h*ll is wrong with that? True bipartisanship can be a good thing for the nation. The American people actually expect their representatives and senators to represent them, hammer out the best solutions, and in the end get things done to strengthen the nation. If "Date Night" were to actually accomplish the above it would be welcomed by most of the American people.

Perhaps what is bothering me is the realization that there are those who really do not want any resolution to problems, other than solutions that fit the product of their cherished paradigm(s). Please understand that I spread the criticism to both the conservatives and the progressives. Conservatives scoff at the idea of bipartisanship and mixed seating openly. Progressives on the other hand will use the idea to paint conservatives {those that don't go along}as being partisan and unyielding. Yet progressives are just as guilty, if not more so, of fierce partisanship.

So America, welcome to "Date Night" 2011. Let the political dance and the charade continue. For in reality they began a very long time ago. Really.

I just wish the media, the politicians, and the pundits { I am an amateur one}, would finally agree to drop the BS and get to solving the nations problems.

As a firm advocate of... limiting government to the greatest degree possible, insuring a strong national defense without the interventionist policies we have been following since WW II, strengthening our nation's infrastructure, creating a business environment that is conducive to business growth in America rather than off shore, supporting America's middle class , recognizing that unions do not have to be the opponents of business but rather their partners, remaining true to our constitutional principals and founding vision, and putting America first once again I am pretty sure there is plenty of conservatives, libertarians, and even liberals who could find common ground and agreement. If they would only seriously make the attempt. That and start to think outside the box.

Via: Memeorandum


  1. Liberals and progressives like me, and there are plenty of us, always find common ground with those ideals. It is usually in how we accomplish some of them that we may disagree. Most every agrees with many specifics in your standings.

    The trouble is that through government contracting - the military and healthcare - and corporations recognized as citizen with all duly accorded rights, we are now at the mercy of oligarchical corporate dynasties. The main difference between Republicans and Democrats isn't which party is owned by these corporate dynasties, but how the dynasties are dispersed between the two parties at any given time.

    So, I'd say that before you could do any of those important things you cite, we first must thoroughly end the legal status of a corporation as a citizen. It is not. It is a contractual entity and that is all.

    You could form a corporation and name your housecat the CFO. Can your cat vote? No. But that's about the only thing corporations can't do. Otherwise, they are free to perpetrate all sorts of mischief. Your cat can go to jail, so to speak, and so can you, for real, but you imprison a contractual entity.

    Back to tha cat... As it is now, your cat could donate money to a political campaign. And that really sums up the problem. What a stupidly corrupt situation.

    Corporations must be dislocated from the political and election processes. Only corporations that perform only work in those fields should be allowed to partake, and even then with starkly drawn rules.

    This nation is for We The People, not We The Contractual Entities.

    Take trying to bring work back to the states:

    What are you going to do? The only way to do it is with tariffs and quotas. A tax and a regulation and a cost of living increase for you and I. It is the only way.

    The GOP way to bring jobs back home, and many conservative independents happily agree, is a race to the bottom for our workers to the status of Third World laborers, and turning it's back on the pollution and white collar crime that would inevitably come of it.

    You want to bring jobs home? Make foreign made goods more expensive. It's as easy as that.

    Like I said, it is usually in how we accomplish some of those great ideals of yours that we may disagree.


  2. Oops!

    "Your cat can go to jail, so to speak, and so can you, for real, but you can't imprison a contractual entity."


  3. Oops, nor can you a union. So lets talk real turkey.

    As for tariffs I'm all for tossing "free trade" as apparently viewed by the pols. I am all for leveling the playing field. Our global competitors get it, we obviously don't. I've said this numerous times JMJ.

    As to defense, I am all for a strong national defense, I have real issues with interventionist foreign policy and the military industrial complex. I have said this repeatedly as my regular visitors know. Call me a libertarian Ron Paul kinda guy.

    The difference between the establishment republican and established democratic parties is in reality nothing more than a blond hair from a pols head. End of story.

    Corporations AND unions must be dislocated from the political and election process. How conveniently progressives ignore the influence of unions on political realities. To you progressives it always has been the "big bad business" community. To which I say open your eyes to reality. Two tango better than one so to speak.

    Perhaps you have failed to notice I ain't a republican. I am an independent conservative. But don't fret, many other progressives have chosen to not recognize that fact. Same holds true with many so called conservatives.

    In closing, when and if I go to jail I ain't taking my cat with me.

  4. JMJ,

    You said:
    "Liberals and progressives like me, and there are plenty of us.."

    Really, now? I'm curious: if there are so many of you, why then does FOX News smoke MSNBC, CNN, and the Big Three with ease? Do all you libs and progressives just not own TV's? I mean, most of you don't actually work, so it seems you would have a lot of down time to watch The View, MSNBC, etc, and the ratings would be there.

    Just a passing observation. And no, JMJ, I honestly do not regularly watch FOX News or run about praising them. I have seen the stats though. Liberal media TV, be it cable or otherwise, is failing. Miserably. Yet "conservative" channels like FOX are booming. And most conservatives that I know actually have jobs, so they can't spend their time lounging about their homes on the taxpayer's dime.

    Donald in Bethel, CT

  5. "Oops, nor can you a union. So lets talk real turkey."

    Yes Les, I completely agree.

    No abstract contractual entity should be afforded all the rights, let alone none of the sanctions, of an American citizen. None other than a living, breathing citizen of the United States of America should be assumed those rights.

    We, as a people, should be free to regulate the the corporate sector in a constitutional way. There's far more we could easily be doing. You guys seem to want to do less, even though modern, starkly evident history should inform you otherwise, and for all the incorrect (not wrong) reasons.

    I think you, and I, and most people would applaud the end of the corporatist status quo, but until we stand against that together as one, we will never have the power to make the changes we want.

    I wish with all my heart the Tea Party movement, and I admit I've been very hard on them, would
    get on board with that.

    When it comes to American elections:

    No unions.

    No corporations.

    No Abstract Contractual Entities.

    The only money politicians should receive is from verifiably individual donors, with a tax incentive.


    We should write an amendment for that, dammit.

    Now, here's the next argument:

    Money is not speech.


  6. Donald, like most people, I don't take cable and radio news very seriously. Demos from those viewers and listeners don't tell you much about people in general.

    Mass entertainment is what it is. It caters to the lowest common demoninator. Sometimes something beautiful comes from it, sometimes it's ugly. Whatever. It is the standard we're currently abiding.

    As for who has jobs, I would point out that Wall Street corrupted states like Florida, Nevada, and Arizona have been the hardest hit by this recession. Be careful what you wish for.


  7. JMJ,

    Be careful what I wish for? What? Because conservatives are known for having work ethics and a fierce independence AWAY from the teats of the Federal government, unlike the liberal base who regularly contents themselves to suckle like babies on the nipples of "entitlement" and "what can you do for me?"?

    Come on, now, JMJ. Don't be mifffed because your base is made up of college students, the unemployed, and the illegal minority.

    Wall Street is not the enemy. The progressive agenda and the brainwashing of the weak-minded and spineless is what you should be lambasting.

    Donald in Bethel, CT

  8. I'll be watching reruns of NCIS. I refuse to listen to an endless stream of lies.

  9. Don,

    Conservatives are not known for having any better work ethics than anyone else. Only in your minds are you superior workers. Between the military and the rest of the recipient states and locales, mostly Red by the way, conservatives are nototrious for sucking at the people's teat and then shamelessly and hypocritically pointing the finger at everyone else.

    Wall Street is not de facto "the enemy." That's just a simplistic projection on liberal thought. But if you let Wall Street run amok with the vast financial resources at their disposal, only the most weak-minded sycophant would believe they won't play dirty.

    And you in no way address my argument. We can never come together if all you can do is self-aggrandize, point fingers, and ignore the real arguments.


  10. JMJ,

    You said:
    And you in no way address my argument. We can never come together if all you can do is self-aggrandize, point fingers, and ignore the real arguments.

    Um, hello? Kettle, this is pot. Yes. You're black.

    JMJ, please. For starters you insult my intelligence by seeking to become a victim, (a progressive tactic), of my mean and nasty words. Spare me your false femininity.

    Secondly, whoever said I come here to drink chai lattes with you or hold your hand and come together with you?

    I am not ignorant to the Big Picture, JMJ. People only ask for peace when they know they can be beaten.

    Try your pitiful liberal Jedi mind tricks elsewhere. Your ideology stinks and you know it. And we all know it. There is not a rock big enough to hide under.

    Hugs and kisses,
    Donald in Bethel, CT

    Les, I understand if you would ask me to no longer opine here. You do seek common ground and rational thought here, and I simply will never compromise with liberals or play their games. JMJ is yet another sorry and cliche excuse of a progressive. I am not seeking peace with him. You know my email if you wish to banish me. I will not be offended, but will acquiesce to your judgments.

  11. In all fairness I must say I do no liberals that come to work everyday, pay their mortgage, take care of their family and in fact do a pretty darn good job of it.

    I also know there are conservatives that are not glowing examples of outstanding work ethic.

    I am as confident in my independent conservative and Randian beliefs as anyone is in theirs. My beliefs are unshakable.

    But I still believe that at the end of the day conservatives, moderates, and progressives still live in the same nation and are neighbors.

    While I have done my share of hammering the progressives {remember I was the one who coined progressive collectivist a while back} I have come to realize that we can either dialogue or we can throw grenades. I prefer to dialogue.

    No one can possibly be right 100% of the time. Hearing reasoned, unemotional, and logical argument that one does not agree with is worth the time, for many reasons.

    Don you can continue to comment here at RN USA. Your views are more often than not valid. I only ask that dialogue be respectful. Heated is fine and in fact it can occasionally be desirable.

    I add that attacking the progressive philosophy or conservative philosophy is fine. One simply should not attack the person. I believe Christ's philosophy supports the foregoing statement. And you know my beliefs well.

  12. Les,

    When you are right, you are right. I am having a difficult time separating the person from the ideology. I think JMJ is a complete moron. It is just how I am right now. I don't want to be "that person".

    I'm taking a small break from RNUSA to get my head on straight. Thanks for the words, Les.

    Donald in Bethel, CT

  13. Don, you have a serious misunderingstanding of whom I am and what I'm saying. You seem so certain of the existence of a monolithic, narrow, dogmatic liberal cliche out there. What of it may exist, I am not party to it.

    I thought we were having an excellent conversation until you came in an ad hom'd me. That doesn't make me a victim in my mind, and I know I didn't convey any victimization argument to you. I'm just saying that you are not joining the converstion, but rater just distracting by bumping chests.

    It doesn't make me a victim, just annoyed.


  14. Oh, and if you think I'm a moron, try debating me and proving it. Only a poor judge of character - or someone blinded by ideological zealotry - would think I'm a moron. You should read people better, Don. We may disagree, but that doesn't make me or you stupid.

    I'll have you know I have a high IQ, and am quite literate, cultured - and much more than just "snobby" cultured, an autodidact, and experienced. My opinions are formed from a wide spectrum of experiences and sources.

    I spent some time in the auto industry as an inspector, field inspector, inspector supervisor and trainer, and later in production management itself - in my mid twenties, by the way. I saw many of the failings of the industry, as well as some misunderstood successes. It's a fascinating industry, but muddied by monopolistic financing and free trade.

    Did you know some 4000-5000 manufacturers go into any given car? Those manyufacturers are all over the world. You could theoretically buy an "American" car that is less American-made than a "foreign car." It's all how you measure "where" something is "made," since many manufacturers can go into any given "part."

    There are some problems with the unions too, but they have remedied them pretty well in recent years, and now non-union foreign automakers here in the states have pretty much the same pay and benefit structures as union makers.

    I also worked with many foreign folks in that busniess. Many parts makers here in the states hire "illegal immigrants," and immigrants in general. There are also many foreign folks making parts - and cars - in the US. For instance, I worked first for the Bristich, and then they were bought by the Germans, and so I worked for them. The pay was mediocre, but the benefits, and the way they treated people, were much better than any American I'd worked for. From then on I stayed with foreign corporations.

    I'm my late twenties and through my thirties I worked for many years in international trade with two of the biggest container lines in the world, starting out at the bottom and working my to a senior position in accounting at the North American HQ.



  15. ...

    In my various positions, I worked with people from all over the world everyday. Some became good friends. I learned from all of them.

    I was the sponsor for a Greek national and an Italian national to get married. WHAT A WEDDING! We're talkin' piles of northern Italians, a few southern Italians (technically I am one of them, but the northern guys never imposed that insanity on me), and a ton of Greeks partying all night long. Good times.

    I had a coworker, Chinese immgrant, and a tough, big guy, shed tears as he described his family in Taiwan having a meeting with his family from the Mainland, and how long it had been coming and the trials of a family torn apart by civil war.

    I had a Russian guy who'd lost everything by sheer force majeure, and in tears describe to me what he looked forward to experiencing on his forced return to Russia. It was horrifying. He couldn't decide whether he wanted to live or not.

    I have no unrealistic understanding of what the world can be like. When I hear you guys compare America to the Soviets or China, I just think you're being sooooooooooo ridiculous.

    I was a musician throughout my twenties and copywrote, produced and performed many original songs. Though I never hit the "big time," all my musician friends and family, as well as the audiences, patrons, and owners, always said I was excellent and should have "made it." Oh well. Life goes on. Besides, I'm still pretty good, to this day.

    In my spare time, throughout my life, I studied history. It is and always was my great personal passion. To this day, it's the vast majority of what I read. Over the past months, I find myself once again reading great modern works of European history, now with much more research and finds. Over the course of my life, I don't think there is a part of the world I haven't studied at least a little.

    If you really believe I'm a moron, in any way, then you definitely are a moron. ;)


  16. JMJ,

    Seriously? You didn't see what I said here:
    I am having a difficult time separating the person from the ideology. I think JMJ is a complete moron. It is just how I am right now. I don't want to be "that person".

    I was bowing to Les and his wisdom and had decided to take a break from letting myself go further down the road of jackassery. But no. You just had to come along, AFTER THE FACT, and have your two cents worth of whining. Dude, I am gone. You are showing your bravado to a person who isn't even here any longer.

    My Lord but you liberals are a feminine bunch, aren't you? I'll be off on my journey now.

    Donald in Bethel, CT

  17. Have we just seen a mini session of the US Congress?

  18. Whatever Don. You have a closed mind.

    Yes, Les. That's what is was. The Right closing their ears while hurling epithets at the Left. The Right in this country has no care for governing and solving problems, only accruing power by dividing us into hyper-partisan camps.


  19. JMJ - I am of the independent conservative right, there are a lot more like me.

    Minds tend to be closed on both sides JMJ, it is a curse in a way. Therefore it requires great effort to keep the doors to ones mind open.

    As such I truly struggle to understand the mind of progressives as I see their rationale more often than not flawed.

    It's a thing called ones view of reality. There will always be differences of opinions, as there should be. If there were not it would be a pretty boring world. Unless of course one wants to be a Robotron.


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